Right-wing activists across the nation are enraged by Sen. Lindsey Graham’s (R-SC) decision to work with Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) to craft comprehensive climate and clean energy legislation. In an op-ed published in Sunday’s New York Times, Graham and Kerry discussed their agreement on a framework for mandatory global warming pollution reductions linked to government support for the nuclear, coal, and natural gas industries. The Natural Resource Defense Council’s Dan Lashof embraced the announcement as a “game changer.” Bill Scher noted that Graham has “crossed the climate Rubicon,” abandoning denialist conservative activists by recognizing the threat of global warming and working with Democrats. Graham has even said “it doesn’t bother me one bit” if President Obama gets credit for a policy victory:
I think the planet is heating up. I think CO2 emissions are damaging the environment and this dependence on foreign oil is a natural disaster in the making. Let’s do something about it. I’d like to solve a problem, and if it’s on President Obama’s watch, it doesn’t bother me one bit if it makes the country better off.
Graham’s willingness to drop blind partisanship for the chance to shape corporate-friendly climate legislation is making him the latest target of the extremist right, who drove Sen. Arlen Specter (D-PA) out of the Republican Party and demonized Rep. Mike Castle (R-DE). Yesterday, Graham held a town hall meeting in Greenville, South Carolina in which local Tea Party activists accused him of “going to bed with John Kerry” and making a “pact with the devil,” accusations which generated tremendous applause by the assembled crowd.
Watch it:
This unhinged response is reflected in the conservative blogosphere, where Graham has been called a “fake Republican,” “RINO” (Republican in name only), a “traitor,” “disgrace,” “asshat,” “democrat in drag,” and a “wussypants, girly-man, half-a-sissy”:
Liberty Journal: Vote out the traitors who seek control of you with the use of your money paid in the form of taxes.
Mike Proto: Quite honestly, it is growing tiresome having to report on another fake Republican who is selling us out. In this case, it is the RINO senior senator from South Carolina, Lindsey Graham. . . . Now, the faux Republican is teaming up with none other than John ‘F’n’ Kerry on C(r)ap & Trade.
Michelle Malkin: God save us from bipartisanship.
Gateway Pundit: Senator Graham is a disgrace.
Ross Kaminsky: Lindsey Graham is little more than Barack Obama’s useful idiot, a man who clearly has no interest in the scientific data and who is so desirous of “doing something” that he barely cares what it is he gets done.
Dan Riehl: Why does SC continue to re-elect this doofus with a bad haircut?
Bruce Tyson: The RINO traitor to all that is right, just, and good, South Carolina’s own Lindesey Graham [sic] has done it again: this time siding with John Kerry on climate change fraud.
Pamela Gellar: Any Republican who signs off on the bankrupting of America vis a vis junk science climate change legislation is a traitor. Lindsey Graham is an asshat.
Founding Bloggers: They are selling us out to cover up for the fact that depression era entitlement programs, combined with greed and corruption, are wiping us out.
Angry White Dude: Graham is, in a word, a douchebag being used for his vote. . . . Just like his daddy Supreme Rat McCain, Graham is a Democrat. South Carolinians, you’re better than that…those of you who aren’t liberals. Do something about it the next that wussypants, girly-man, half-a-sissy comes asking for your vote! He is no friend of America!
Mark Harvey: Just like McCain, Lindsey Graham is actually a DIG, a democrat in drag.
What I'm trying to do is make sure that the uh Markey-Waxman bill from the House is dead, because it will have about an $800 individual cost per person, and when you apply that to small businesses, that's a huge price. If the EPA regulates carbon, and there's no tools for businesses, particularly manufacturers, to comply, that's the worst outcome.Estimates from the CBO and EPA of the net cost are about $80 to $175 per household, not $800 per person.


This anti-Graham outrage just goes to show how pathetic the GOP is.
October 13th, 2009 at 6:49 pmHey, thanks for quoting me. ‘Teabaggers,’ eh? How mature.
So we are unhinged because we want a Republican to act like one? That’s quite an interesting take. Perhaps we should be more ‘reasonable’ like the way Democrats treated Joe Lieberman. What do you think?
October 13th, 2009 at 7:05 pmThese right-wing ignorant people are very stupid, but very frightening. They have no facts, no credibility, but they can scream their lies louder than anyone. And the media just keeps giving them more credibility– how sick is that?
October 13th, 2009 at 7:56 pmSince when do we build acronyms – first letter – first letter – last letter ??
October 13th, 2009 at 7:56 pmMike — thanks for the reply. This is my take: unless you believe that global warming is a hoax, then Graham’s efforts are what Republican stalwarts and conservative activists should want from GOP electeds — taking an already corporate-friendly pollution reduction system and using his support as leverage for deep government support for established conservative-leaning business interests — the nuclear, coal, oil, and natural gas industries.
If Congress fails to act, then instead of a market-driven approach to global warming, we’ll see an approach driven by federal regulations — a pathway that I personally think would help reduce the outsize influence that banks and energy companies have on the American politic but would probably go against conservative principles — though it’s hard to tell whether there’s a consistent ideology these days, what with the belief espoused by activists that Obama is simultaneously a communist, fascist, Marxist, socialist, tool of corporations like GE and Goldman Sachs, the United Nations, and other mutually inconsistent conspiracies.
I think the mistake that many conservative activists are making is believing that denial of the science of global warming should be a plank of the Republican Party.
Like the anti-immigrant fervor and race-tinged fear and hatred of President Obama that drive many of these activists, the idea that climate change is just a big Al Gore conspiracy threatens to consign the Republican Party to irrelevance even as it hurts the nation and the world.
October 13th, 2009 at 7:56 pmThese right-wing ignorant people are very stupid, but very frightening. They have no facts, no credibility, but they can scream their lies louder than anyone. And the media just keeps giving them more credibility– how sick is that?
“Wussypants”, “Girly-Man”, “Half-A-Sissy” – Repubs always sound as though they are 5 years old.
October 13th, 2009 at 7:58 pmRun him out of the GOP if you want – but PLEASE God – dont send him to the Dems
October 13th, 2009 at 8:33 pmBrad –
I don’t see Graham as advocating market-driven reform. I see him as caving.
Despite what one believes about global warming – I do not believe it’s happening and have seen plenty of facts to support that view – Cap & Trade will destroy our already fragile economy.
Energy bills will ’skyrocket’ and jobs will be killed. Moreover, the supposed goal of cooling the planet will not be achieved. What the conservative activist needs to continue to do is bring these truths out for the public to see.
You are, of course, welcome to research all of my posts on this subject. They are quite easy to find on my blog site.
Also, you said: “Like the anti-immigrant fervor and race-tinged fear and hatred of President Obama that drive many of these activists”
I have to wonder, have you ever actually talked to any of these activists you are smearing? If you had, I doubt you would make such accusations. You can do better, I’m sure.
October 13th, 2009 at 8:41 pmThat is called selective observation. The scientific consensus is that climate change is very real and very dangerous. The “research” that I have seen in opposition to the reality of climate change has been done by people who lack the appropriate background.
Moreover, the referee process (peer review) is a vitally important component of research credibility.
Frankly, if you accept the proposition that the earth’s very existence is in danger, the economic consequences seem irrelevant. Irrelevant unless you don’t give a rodent’s derriere for the kids not yet born.
If, on the other hand, climate change is a hoax then Cap and Trade is irrelevant.
When one mentions the validity of climate change in conjunction with the economic effects of controlling CO2 emissions, it seems disingenuous.
October 13th, 2009 at 9:14 pmNot to butt in on an argument, but I live in one of the reddest of the red states, and many of the people in my own extended family, much less just about every 8 out of 10 people on the street here ARE these activists who are filled with anti-immigrant fervor and race-tinged fear and hatred of President Obama. This is simply a fact and I don’t understand why anyone would argue that they are NOT this way, most of THEM will proudly tell you they feel this way out right. They are fine with telling anyone who will listen that the illegals are ruining our country, that the n-word president is a farce (birthers, anyone?) and they are scared to death of what he is doing to our “once great” (like til Jan 20th of this year) nation.
October 13th, 2009 at 9:20 pmCap and Trade is, however, not near enough.
So how does “democrat in drag” abbreviate to DIG? Morans!
October 13th, 2009 at 9:23 pmWell, if the price of a postage stamp a day cripples our economy, we are in worse shape than anyone probably thinks. Maybe you were going to bandy about the BOLD FACED LIE of the GOP that has been disputed here and here?
October 13th, 2009 at 9:51 pmMaybe the opposition should ditch the “my way or the highway” attitude. Bipartisan does not mean you get your way every time. I am sure the climate change deniers will all get together at their version of a scientific museum and discuss how we should treat the earth like a frat house because God is going to rapture up all of the (right) people.
You are an angry, misguided man, Mr. Pronto. Luckily for the rest of us the consensus on global warming is strong enough that deniers can safely be ignored- at this point if you’re not convinced by the data then there’s no point in arguing.
October 13th, 2009 at 10:10 pmMike Proto – Despite what one believes about global warming – I do not believe it’s happening and have seen plenty of facts to support that view…
Typical denialist wording. Don’t believe global warming is happening, and then look for “plenty of facts” that support your view. Damn the scientific consensus to hell.
You’re probably right Mike. Pumping 27 billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere a year will have absolutely no consequences whatsoever. The theory of climate change is much more likely a trojan horse plan by communist sympathizers bent on destroying capitalism. You can do better, I’m sure.
As a climatologist myself, I know of no scientific body of national or international standing that rejects the basic premise of human influence on climate change.
October 13th, 2009 at 10:18 pmMike — actually, I have talked to activists (see here for example).
Perhaps the CBO, EPA, and EIA are lying when they show that energy bills will go down by creating a market incentive for investing in efficiency and labor instead of pollution.
Of course, it’s possible that studies of proposed pollution regulation bought and paid for by oil and coal companies are more accurate, even if they don’t reveal their methodologies and have never been correct in the past.
Have you considered the possibility that our economy is fragile because of the dominance of the Exxon Mobils and Peabody Coals, who have a business model that involves minimizing labor expenditures while maximizing pollution? Perhaps our economy is fragile because we export a billion dollars a day to foreign nations while concentrating wealth and power among fewer and fewer people every year.
Maybe, just maybe, the lesson of the great conservative experiment of the Bush years is that taking the advice of oil and coal companies on energy policy is bad for America.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:10 pmOne doesn’t have to wait to see whether a ventriloquist’s dummy can speak independently or not. You take one look at it, and you know immediately exactly what it is.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:12 pmI’m a populist democrat and I think Lindsay Graham is a traitor to America. With his pro amnesty stance and efforts – he could care less about working Americans and our right to have jobs.
I hope the scumbag is sent home for good by anyone.
And oBUMa too.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:39 pmBrad: Thanks for the article … and the superb replies to Mike.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:48 pmI, too, have talked to activists. What I come across is people who simply don’t believe in capitalism and liberty: http://www.gopusanj.com/wordpress/?p=8778
It appears you are also in that camp. The fragility of our economy is due to government spending and government intervention in the marketplace. If only George Bush WERE conservative we might have been better off. Unfortunately, he never endeavored to limit the size and scope of government so I wouldn’t exactly honor him with the label ‘conservative.’
Moreover, nor would I blame a private enterprise which merely seeks to make a profit (while providing an invaluable service and jobs I might add) for harming our economy. That would be pretty convoluted and unsubstantiated.
With respect to Waxman-Markey, it would be a tax on everything we produce and impact everything in society. Not only with the cost of energy go up, but prices of all other goods and services will as well.
Regarding CBO’s numbers, the Wall Street Journal addressed them here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124588837560750781.html
And Heritage has also thoroughly detailed the damaging aspects of Crap & Trade. Here is just one example: http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/wm2438.cfm
Putting economic aspects aside, the fact remains that Crap and Tax will do nothing to substantially impact global temperatures – again the supposed goal – if for no other reason than India and China won’t join in the charade. Those countries apparently know better than to shoot themselves in the foot. In fact, if they thought it wouldn’t negatively impact their economies they would have no reason to not to go long, right?
October 14th, 2009 at 12:02 amIt’s so nice to see Republican toxicity landing on Republicans.
Since they’ve decimated the first 10, I guess they’re moving on to breaking their 11th commandment. Ah well, they’re editing the Bible anyway, so no one will notice when Supply Side Jesus takes over:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK7gI5lMB7M
- Tom
October 14th, 2009 at 1:06 amWow. Brad just completely owned Mike.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:12 amMike
The fact that you say you have seen studies that prove Global Warming is not an issue worth worrying about proves that you are living in a feedback loop. Their is no independent study and no credible scientist who would agree with you. The fact that you are willing to parrot the views of the few people bought and paid for by the oil industry puts you in the same category as the “Drs.” who used to say smoking was healthy.
Tough decisions need to be made and rigid ideology is not a solution, its an obstacle to making those decisions. That’s true whether you are talking liberal or conservative ideology. Our system of government is predicated on the idea of checks and balances and the need for compromise. Your particular brand of rigidness actually weakens the country, not strengthens it, because opposing viewpoints are not allowed to be treated with respect and therefore, good ideas are not allowed into the debate because the dialogue is too shrill for any real listening. These town halls are proof positive of that fact. Unfortunately, you reap what you sow.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:20 amThese right wing nuts are just a small but loud group of the Republican party who think that if they yell loud enough they’ll get their way. Half of what’s left of the Republican party has had enough of these A-holes who keep driving people out of the GOP.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:25 amRepublican Lindsey Graham is a far right Republican, but increasingly it’s the extremists calling the shots.
The irony is that right wing extremists make far right Republicans look like “moderates”
It’s the Glenn Beck Rush Limbaugh Republican Party of unvarnished crazy.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:34 amActually Mike we have seen the anti-immigrant for years and the race baiting for decades from your party.
The only thing you guys disagreed with Bush on was immigration. Your party wanted to round them up and kick all illegals out the country why Bush seen this as impossible.
Your party wanted to build a fence across the border which has wasted billions of dollars.
Since your party is the anti-science party I would love to see the facts you have seen that don’t support global warming. I’m sure those facts you saw were produced by the oil industry.
Your the party of corporations over the people.
How sick.
October 14th, 2009 at 4:21 amThe fact of the matter is that people such as Teabaggers view anything supported by Democrats as inherently evil. To these groups it is all about winning and losing. Because they have made politics into a sporting event, their narrow view only allows them to support their team.
October 14th, 2009 at 4:38 amGovernment and legislation is not a sporting event. It has always been about compromise in hopes of openly discussing issues to draft the best possible legislation for the good of the people. Despite the fact that Graham has probably voted at least 90% of the time with core GOP issues, Teabaggers are ready to give him the axe for not having 100% compliance. Teabaggers might as well campaign for a dictatorship.
Brad 1
October 14th, 2009 at 7:38 amMike 0
The GOP figured out long ago that the way you communicate to the electorate is by using the same words and catchy phrases over and over again, until they penetrate the most closed minded and ignorant among us. They then, after finally ADOPTING THOSE WORDS AS IF THEY WERE FORMED IN THEIR OWN EMPTY HEADS, repeat those words. These people form what is fondly referred to as THE GOP BASE.
October 14th, 2009 at 8:25 amProblem is: They do not have the capacity for critical thought and so are doomed to mull those political points over and over again, being unable to entertain new ideas or even create their own ideas. Now the GOP must deal with the ROVE legacy. For those religious morons, YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW.
Wow. Thank you for “going there” so we didn’t have to…
October 14th, 2009 at 8:35 amMoonsha
They are campaigning for a dictatorship. Nevermind that they talk about freedoms and the constitution, the proponents of totalitarianism always speak in terms generally associated with liberty. You will notice that their one contribution to the health care debate has been the tired mantra of tort reform, which essentially robs Americans of the right to protect themselves from and seek redress for medical malpractice. The average person’s last line of defense against the powerful is the lawsuit, but they will sacrifice scores of individuals in order to protect corporate profits, which is most obviously on display in this global warming hissy fit.
Yes, there is no room for dissent amongst the Teabagger crowd. Conform or die, should be their motto.
October 14th, 2009 at 8:51 amJust for the record, the guy mocking our lack of maturity vis a vis “teabaggers” is using the phrase “crap and trade.” Glass houses is all I’m saying…
…but no matter. Trying to explain to guys like Mike just exactly how they’re douchey is like trying to explain morality at a NAMBLA convention.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:18 ampwayne Says:
Moonsha
****
Yes, there is no room for dissent amongst the Teabagger crowd. Conform or die, should be their motto.
***
This is already their motto. They use the Gadsden flag at their rallies and encourage their followers to hang them at home. This flag has the timber rattlesnake as a symbol. This was originally used by Benjamin Franklin in a cartoon in May 9, 1754. The snake was cut into 8 pieces with the words Join or Die. It is considered the first political cartoon.
It’s no coincidence that the Teabaggers are using this symbol.
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/firsts/cartoon/snake.html
October 14th, 2009 at 9:46 amMike Proto
Anyone who thinks that humans don’t negatively impact their environment have never been in a public restroom.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:07 amWhat I find so ironic about all this “Crap and Tax will kill jobs!” garbage is that pretty much any regulation and legislation that Congress passes almost guarantees new industries will pop up to take advantage. Having worked in the health insurance industry for a while, COBRA and HIPAA are good examples of legislation that has spawned opportunities for entrepreneurs to either become consultants or administrators to sell more services for compliance. Huh – look! Legislation and regulation that creates – JOBS!
“But it’ll kill jobs anyway!” Yes, just like getting rid of CFC’s to stop the ozone depletion problem was supposed to “kill jobs” by ruining refrigerators and freezers and making them more expensive. And what happened? Hmmm… refrigerators didn’t get more pricey, economy did great in the 90’s, and we have more efficient refrigerators and freezers than ever AND they don’t have CFC’s in them. Holy crap – look at that! Regulation that is sensible, helped the environment, and proved the “Chicken Little’s” of the world that the sky wouldn’t fall on the refrigeration job market.
Given that conservatives jump up-and-down screaming “CAPITALISM!” and “FREE MARKET!” at the top of their lungs every chance they get, you’d think they’d be interested in getting rid of the $80 billion in corporate welfare the oil and gas industry gets, and allowing MORE companies (like solar, wind, etc.) to compete on a level playing field. I thought the free market was all about MORE competition, not less…
October 14th, 2009 at 10:39 amMike Proto’s entire argument boils down to:
Who are you going to believe: the oil and coal company’s greed for 300% profits or your own lying eyes?
One doesn’t have to be a climate scientist to witness the obvious effects of the already changing climate. There are only about 150M ‘conservatives’ in America that refuse to believe what they are seeing with their own eyes and about 6000M human beings (the rest of the world) that are not so deep in denial that it’s clinically insane.
Mike really should get out more an talk to actual people instead of his fellow conservative anti-intellectuals. For example, go talk to anyone from the Marshall Islands, they’ll tell you that they can no longer grow gardens because the rising ocean levels have salted the groundwater.
Mike is a typical ‘conservative’, the only emotion he has is hatred and disdain for the almost 7 billion people that know these oil-company-funded-climate-change-denying-’scienticians’ are obviously and blatantly lying.
Anyone and anything that dares disagree with Saint Limbaugh and every other conservative group, like the ones he mentions, WSJ, Heritage, that simply make up fantasy-world lies, like, “The fragility of our economy is due to government spending and government intervention in the marketplace.”
No where ever in recorded history does that bear out. In fact the historical record show us that when left un-restricted Capitalism crashes and burns regularly, resulting in millions of starving people and only a tiny handful of wealthy. The historical record also shows that America was at it most powerful and prosperous when the income tax rate for the obscenely wealthy was 90% and the corporate tax rate was 40% and we had a large and rich middle-class and 60% of the American workforce in unions.
With a proven historical record like that, the Conservative ‘philosophy’ has but one goal, to return to 1932 when millions of Americans were starving to death and Andrew Carnegie could kill his employees for profit with impunity. That is the ‘utopia’ that Conservative Republicans aspire to.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:51 amSimple question for Mike. There is an easy test to determine whether your opposition to attempts to curb global warming are based on your respect for science or your ideology: evolution, yes or no?
October 14th, 2009 at 11:52 amReading through Mike Proto’s Libertarian screed about taxes, cap and trade, global warming, capitalism and FREEDOM just makes my teeth itch.
The libertarian meme that “government has do stop interferring” in the American financial system should have been fully exposed as a blatant lie after the meltdown of 2008 when the final fruit of Reaganism, Bushism and “Free Market” economics came to attack us all.
Nevertheless, water carriers for the rich and heartless such as Mike and all the other so called “conservatives” will continue to be with us. After all they are being well paid to sell out their fellow Americans to the greedy and pitiless corporate machinery.
They continue to moan about “freedom” when the majority of their fellow countrymen are wage slaves to the credit industry, banks, insurance companies and other faceless money pits.
Disingenuous is a mild description of such people
October 14th, 2009 at 12:29 pmNo wonder Republican congress-critters fall into lockstep so quickly, their base is only a step or two away from literally tearing them apart when they don’t.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:36 pmBtw, if everyone to the left of Lindsay Graham is really a Democrat then why the hell can’t we get single payer healthcare reform passed?
October 14th, 2009 at 1:37 pmWho are you going to believe: the oil and coal company’s greed for 300% profits or your own lying eyes?
October 14th, 2009 at 1:49 pmOh yeah? We got snow on Monday. It’s colder than usual here, ergo global warming is a hoax! /wingnut
We had ALL kinds of rhetoric so similar to what’s being said today, and different groups fighting F.D.R. and every program he instituted ! He got elected 4 times in spite of it all.
October 14th, 2009 at 5:47 pmHis predisessor on the way out of the White House said;
We did every thing we could tp prevent this, now we have to leave it to the “FREE MKT”
Forcing American businesses to switch to more expensive sources of energy will raise the cost of American goods. This will make American goods less competitive. To survive, American business will have to outsource manufacturing to China, India, etc. where they have the advantage of cheap energy.
This means less jobs here at home, right? Am I missing something?
October 15th, 2009 at 10:34 amgood to see the gop thugs eating their own…..
hey, the earth is flat dont you know, the reichwing says so…. and nothing you can say will convince the inbreds that the earth is really not flat. you cant argue with the dead….
October 15th, 2009 at 11:22 amThis is exactly why you never negotiate with terrorists. These far right nuts are in the exact same category as a Muslim terrorists. You do no negotiate, you do not have civil or educated dialogue.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:41 pmThis is the Global Socialist Party that runs both sides of the aisle at work here….
What’s responsible for global warming, if such is the case? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out, but using those corporate scientists to make this spin justifies the agenda in this Cap & Trade new Wall Street gambling and gaming venture for the global rich’s amusement.
The Earth has been heating up since the Ice Age. It is the heating of the Earth’s core which is responsible, which most baby boomers learned in high school chemistry, after all. And also the fact that the amount of carbon emission will not decrease significantly at all so long as the U.S. and other countries continue with their “controlled burns” of trees and foliage in order to protect trade agreements between the nations most of all. THEY are what are contributing to the most carbon emissions after all.
And it is new tree growth, not old, that takes in more carbon and emits more oxygen since new trees need more carbon in order to grow.
What spins. And Graham truly is another of the Global Socialists, as are McCain, Pelosi, Reid and the rest that are aligned with the Rockefellar and British based banks and Council on Foreign Relations whose true goals are world socialism, after all, under their guidance and for their profits.
October 16th, 2009 at 4:38 pmI know I’m sowing pearls before swine, but as XKCD says “Someone is wrong on the Internet!”
Complaining about the “global rich” is usually the province of the Left, not the Right. All you’d have to do is replace “Socialist” with “Captalist” in your post and it would be indistinguishable from literature by the Spartacist League. Are you sure you’re really a conservative?
This geologist will tell you that the Earth has not been heating up continuously since the last glaciation. For starters, the Little Ice Ages say hi. Also, it’s the Sun that does the heating, not the core, which is slowly cooling and doesn’t produce enough heat to significantly warm the atmosphere.
Now, that’s a novel claim. Is that original with you?
That’s the first scientifically plausible thing you’ve written.
You forgot to mention the Bilderbergers, the Trilateral Commission, and Bohemian Grove. Be sure to include them in your grand conspiracy theory should your return.
Also, I see from your website that you’re a supporter of Orly Taitz. Good luck with that.
Finally, Betsy, it looks like you should be using that Reynolds Wrap for your bonnet, not for sewing stars on the flag.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:27 am