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	<title>Comments on: Norquist: &#8216;More People Will Die&#8217; Because Bush Raised CAFE Standards</title>
	<atom:link href="http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
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		<title>By: Parrotlover77</title>
		<link>http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/comment-page-1/#comment-316</link>
		<dc:creator>Parrotlover77</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 17:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/#comment-316</guid>
		<description>Pretending Norquist&#039;s rant actually made sense, if we make all vehicles lighter, then when lighter vehicles hit other lighter vehicles... everybody is even less hurt than now.  This is supposing that the problem is the old big honking 6 ton Hummer hitting the new &quot;weaker&quot; lighter Toyota Prius.  It&#039;s amazing how easy it is to defeat them using their own twisted logic.

WE NEED A VEHICLE WEIGHT TAX for excessively heavy vehicles (possibly excluding freight since truck drivers get screwed so hard these days anyway).  The extra wear on the roads is reason enough to massively tax &gt;2 ton vehicles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretending Norquist&#8217;s rant actually made sense, if we make all vehicles lighter, then when lighter vehicles hit other lighter vehicles&#8230; everybody is even less hurt than now.  This is supposing that the problem is the old big honking 6 ton Hummer hitting the new &#8220;weaker&#8221; lighter Toyota Prius.  It&#8217;s amazing how easy it is to defeat them using their own twisted logic.</p>
<p>WE NEED A VEHICLE WEIGHT TAX for excessively heavy vehicles (possibly excluding freight since truck drivers get screwed so hard these days anyway).  The extra wear on the roads is reason enough to massively tax &gt;2 ton vehicles.</p>
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		<title>By: cavjam</title>
		<link>http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/comment-page-1/#comment-306</link>
		<dc:creator>cavjam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 05:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/#comment-306</guid>
		<description>The fatality rate of crashes has most to do with cabin integrity and upper body restraints (shoulder harnesses and airbags). One need only look at the low fatality rates in F1 crashes to see the absurdity of Norquist&#039;s remarks.

Smaller vehicles tend to be more nimble, thus increasing accident avoidance.

Fatalities per vehicle mile sounds scientific but congestion (vehicles per lane miles) is a major factor.

Re vehicle momentum: I&#039;d think that the mass of driver and passenger is more pertinent than vehicle mass except in high/low mass collisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fatality rate of crashes has most to do with cabin integrity and upper body restraints (shoulder harnesses and airbags). One need only look at the low fatality rates in F1 crashes to see the absurdity of Norquist&#8217;s remarks.</p>
<p>Smaller vehicles tend to be more nimble, thus increasing accident avoidance.</p>
<p>Fatalities per vehicle mile sounds scientific but congestion (vehicles per lane miles) is a major factor.</p>
<p>Re vehicle momentum: I&#8217;d think that the mass of driver and passenger is more pertinent than vehicle mass except in high/low mass collisions.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/comment-page-1/#comment-292</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 00:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/#comment-292</guid>
		<description>I forgot to mention -- in 1993 there weren&#039;t any hybrid vehicles on the road.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to mention &#8212; in 1993 there weren&#8217;t any hybrid vehicles on the road.</p>
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		<title>By: vehyrehk</title>
		<link>http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/comment-page-1/#comment-288</link>
		<dc:creator>vehyrehk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 00:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/#comment-288</guid>
		<description>I would like to add to others with a note about european cafe standards which have been in place much longer .. In addition to what fletc3her was speaking to regarding the size of the vehicles themselves... In Germany they have the autobahn and when they have crashes they don&#039;t have to send out the meat wagon to pick up the dead .. they send the ambulance because they have lighter vehicles with all the bells and whistles for safety which by the way are of much higher standard than our own here in the states... woe the person who cannot see beyond their own nose eh Norquist you need to wake up and smell that you just shat yourself and your stink is more than passing... I liked what you had to fletc3her you were right on</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to add to others with a note about european cafe standards which have been in place much longer .. In addition to what fletc3her was speaking to regarding the size of the vehicles themselves&#8230; In Germany they have the autobahn and when they have crashes they don&#8217;t have to send out the meat wagon to pick up the dead .. they send the ambulance because they have lighter vehicles with all the bells and whistles for safety which by the way are of much higher standard than our own here in the states&#8230; woe the person who cannot see beyond their own nose eh Norquist you need to wake up and smell that you just shat yourself and your stink is more than passing&#8230; I liked what you had to fletc3her you were right on</p>
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		<title>By: Mugsy</title>
		<link>http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/comment-page-1/#comment-286</link>
		<dc:creator>Mugsy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/#comment-286</guid>
		<description>By Grover&#039;s logic, the government should be promoting the sale/use of Army tanks for everyday driving.

I remember the same argument back in the 70&#039;s yes, I&#039;m that old) when Japanese &quot;econobox&quot; vehicles started sharing the roads with hulking steel American cars that got 7mpg. If there was an uptick in automobile deaths, it must have been short-lived and minor as I have no recollection of it. &quot;Safety standards&quot; and &quot;crumple zones&quot; made vehicle accidents more survivable.

As people demanded more fuel-efficient cars, the average weight of vehicles on the road began to decline. It has only been the recent &quot;SUV craze&quot; that has loaded our highways with bulky gas guzzlers again. And just as it did in the 70&#039;s, increased fuel efficiency will drive down the average weight and increased safety standards will decrease casualties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By Grover&#8217;s logic, the government should be promoting the sale/use of Army tanks for everyday driving.</p>
<p>I remember the same argument back in the 70&#8217;s yes, I&#8217;m that old) when Japanese &#8220;econobox&#8221; vehicles started sharing the roads with hulking steel American cars that got 7mpg. If there was an uptick in automobile deaths, it must have been short-lived and minor as I have no recollection of it. &#8220;Safety standards&#8221; and &#8220;crumple zones&#8221; made vehicle accidents more survivable.</p>
<p>As people demanded more fuel-efficient cars, the average weight of vehicles on the road began to decline. It has only been the recent &#8220;SUV craze&#8221; that has loaded our highways with bulky gas guzzlers again. And just as it did in the 70&#8217;s, increased fuel efficiency will drive down the average weight and increased safety standards will decrease casualties.</p>
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		<title>By: fletc3her</title>
		<link>http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/comment-page-1/#comment-284</link>
		<dc:creator>fletc3her</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/03/25/norquist-cafe/#comment-284</guid>
		<description>A crash is a complex situation involving both the passengers in the vehicles as well as the vehicles themselves.  

In a collision between a large and a small vehicle the small vehicle will tend to take the brunt of the damage.  The larger vehicle has more momentum to dissipate in the accident.  However, looking at only this one scenario is misleading.

Several other aspects bear consideration.

First, larger vehicles are more susceptible to single vehicle accidents.  Large trucks and SUVs have more momentum and that can lead to stability problems like we&#039;ve seen in Ford Explorers.  These vehicles are more prone to rolling and to damage from collisions with road side objects.

Second, the passengers within a larger vehicle may be in more danger than those in a smaller vehicle.  The momentum of the crash may be transferred to the occupants of the vehicles.  The occupants of the higher momentum vehicle will tend to be injured in greater proportion, particularly if they are not wearing seat belts or if airbags do not deploy properly.

Finally, although a collision between a larger vehicle and a smaller vehicle endangers those in the smaller vehicle, in collisions between like vehicles those in the smaller vehicles will tend to be safer.  At the same speed, a collision between smaller vehicles must dissipate much less momentum than a similar collision between larger vehicles.  A road which contains a greater proportion of smaller vehicles may be safer overall to the drivers of those vehicles, and even to the drivers of the larger vehicles.

Beyond momentum arguments, the safety features of cars have greatly improved since the seventies and the eighties.  Modern cars have rigid passenger compartments surrounded by crumple zones, airbags often for the rear passengers as well as for the driver, as well as improved seat belts, anti-lock brakes, and traction control systems.  I don&#039;t think you can look at studies from the seventies and eighties and then deny all the advances which have happened since.

But then, I don&#039;t think Grover Norquist is actually interested in having an honest debate about these issues.  He&#039;s interested in scaring people so his organization can raise more money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A crash is a complex situation involving both the passengers in the vehicles as well as the vehicles themselves.  </p>
<p>In a collision between a large and a small vehicle the small vehicle will tend to take the brunt of the damage.  The larger vehicle has more momentum to dissipate in the accident.  However, looking at only this one scenario is misleading.</p>
<p>Several other aspects bear consideration.</p>
<p>First, larger vehicles are more susceptible to single vehicle accidents.  Large trucks and SUVs have more momentum and that can lead to stability problems like we&#8217;ve seen in Ford Explorers.  These vehicles are more prone to rolling and to damage from collisions with road side objects.</p>
<p>Second, the passengers within a larger vehicle may be in more danger than those in a smaller vehicle.  The momentum of the crash may be transferred to the occupants of the vehicles.  The occupants of the higher momentum vehicle will tend to be injured in greater proportion, particularly if they are not wearing seat belts or if airbags do not deploy properly.</p>
<p>Finally, although a collision between a larger vehicle and a smaller vehicle endangers those in the smaller vehicle, in collisions between like vehicles those in the smaller vehicles will tend to be safer.  At the same speed, a collision between smaller vehicles must dissipate much less momentum than a similar collision between larger vehicles.  A road which contains a greater proportion of smaller vehicles may be safer overall to the drivers of those vehicles, and even to the drivers of the larger vehicles.</p>
<p>Beyond momentum arguments, the safety features of cars have greatly improved since the seventies and the eighties.  Modern cars have rigid passenger compartments surrounded by crumple zones, airbags often for the rear passengers as well as for the driver, as well as improved seat belts, anti-lock brakes, and traction control systems.  I don&#8217;t think you can look at studies from the seventies and eighties and then deny all the advances which have happened since.</p>
<p>But then, I don&#8217;t think Grover Norquist is actually interested in having an honest debate about these issues.  He&#8217;s interested in scaring people so his organization can raise more money.</p>
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